A few people have commented on this blog have that I’m obsessed with – and grant far too much significance to – “irrelevant far left groupuscules” with no wider influence during my ruminations on the Israel/Palestine conflict.
I may well be obsessed. But that’s because I’m also confused. Is the creeping anti-semitism, the crazed Nazi analogies, the lazy history, the blood curdling hatred of Israel, the apologies for Islamism and the rest of the extremist claptrap solely confined to groupuscules on the far left?
Try this for an example.
Tonight the Bristol Stop The War Coalition and Bristol Palestine Solidarity Campaign have organised a meeting with the title ‘Stop The Slaughter In Gaza‘. The keynote speaker is Yvonne Ridley, the former Glenda Slagg-style Express hackette turned Muslim convert and Respect Party bigwig.
Ridley’s day job these days is working for Press TV, a crude propaganda outfit directly funded by the Holocaust denial obssessed Iranian government whose leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said just last week that Israel’s continued existence was “not feasible”.
Ridley also has a sideline in what she describes as “motivational speaking” to Muslims across the world.
“I’m reinforcing their beliefs, I’m attacking the War on Terror, which is a war on Islam, and I’m defending the resistance in the Muslim world,” she says.
And what a defence it is. Yvonne’s motivating words consist of such sane and rational statements to cheering crowds as, “Drinking Coca-Cola is like drinking the blood of Palestinian children!”
Or how about her description of David Miliband? “A gutless little weasel who lost more than his foreskin when he was circumcised.”
Rather nicely gets the point across that he’s – the horror! – Jewish doesn’t it?
Ridley has described the Chechen terrorist leader and architect of the Beslan school massacre, Shamil Basayev, as a ‘shaheed’ or martyr. And she has also declined to condemn Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, preferring instead to say that his attacks in 2005 on three hotels in Jordan killed “US collaborators” and those who deserved to be “punished for their status in life.”
On the subject of her Respect Party, Yvonne says,”[It’s] is a Zionist-free party… if there was any Zionism in the Respect Party they would be hunted down and kicked out. We have no time for Zionists.”
Although she assures us “[it] encompasses a broad church of ideas and opinions”. But obviously not supporters of an Israeli state or “that disgusting little watchdog of America that is festering in the Middle East” as she likes to call it.
As for Labour, Tories and Lib Dems, well, they’re all “riddled with Zionists” aren’t they?
And finally, here’s the view of somebody who’s already heard her speak on the subject of Israel and Palestine:
Overall, the debate was not so much that of `what now for Israel and Palestine?’ as advertised but an all-out attack on Israel. Ridley criticised “the West’s” ignorance of Islam and the situation in Palestine. What is clear is that Respect’s policy on the Middle East, if that is what Ridley advocated, is pretty much in line with that of Hamas and effectively calls for the destruction of Israel
All-in-all, it’s not unfair to describe Ridley as an extremist, which she’s perfectly entitled to be. That’s entirely up to her and her idiot supporters really.
But it’s interesting to see who her supporters are in Bristol and who’s prepared to stand on a platform alongside this Jihadist crackpot as she apologies for the murder of civilians, calls for the destruction of Israel and demands Zionists are hunted down.
Well, here’s who’s speaking with Ridley tonight: Imam Assad Ali Shah – St Marks Road Mosque, Easton; Farooq Siddique – Bristol Muslim Cultural Society; Abdul Malik – Bristol City Councillor for Easton; John Drake – Regional Secretary of the Fire Brigades Union; Paulette North – National Union of Teachers.
That’s just about every high-profile, public so-called “moderate” Muslim in the city and a couple of trade unionists representing a good few thousand public sector workers in the city including, rather disturbingly, teachers.
Makes it a little clearer where this often talked about radicalisation of people over Israel/Palestine might really be coming from doesn’t it?
Maybe it’s about time some of these people sat down and had a hard think about what they’re supporting and what effect they might be having. I’m told Bristol MP, Kerry McCarthy, a vigorous supporter of Palestine, is declining to appear on platforms with Respect and the likes of Ridley. It’s about time others followed the example.
Further info’: try ‘Reading Gaza’ by Fat Man on a Keyboard over at Drink Soaked Trots. It’s a superb analysis of the language, rhetoric and tropes being used and abused by both sides in the Gaza conflict .
What has sickened me about this thing isn’t just what has happened on the extreme left, Stalinist Islamo-trots, but the capitulation of so many of the anarchists to this kind of shit when there are amazing cool things going on in the middle east, check this out:
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2006/09/5563.shtml
Not read it all myself, but seems really cool, people talking together in defiance of the authorities who just want to stoke up hatred of “the enemy”… with the full collaberation of so-called lefties here in the West who are in fact just more of the same ruling class scumbags.
What was the old slogan – “church and state and war”? These fuckers have betrayed the left by supporting religious war, and as such it’s a shame, for once, that there’s no hell for them to burn in.
I believe that a lot of the opposition to Israel, Britain and the USA amongst these types is actually a perverse form of cultural arrogance, of the type seen in CND when it blandly assumed that if Britain disarmed then the rest of the World would follow.
What these people are really saying, when they cry murder at the actions of the west while ignoring butchery by non-Westerners, is that what non-esterners do doesn’t really matter-only white western governments actions are really significant.
I think this is actually a form of Western narcisism-‘only we are capable of real evil, the natives are too childish & backward’.
‘Stop the slaughter in Gaza’ yeah right, and don’t worry about missile attacks on Israel, it’s only Arabs, after all. They can’t do that much damage.
As one of your critics on this point, BB, I have to admit that your post is making me think, less about the ideas of Ms Ridley than about those individuals and organisations which choose to offer or share her platform. I’ll also admit to some ignorance of the arcana of the local left (who, for example are the “Stalinist Islamo-trots” for God’s sake?) (Cf Badnewswade). Still. thanks for the thought-provoking post.
You make some good points BB, and there is no doubt that many on the left have adopted the ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ attitude. Reminds me of the last war between Israel and Lebanon when people adopted the absurd ‘we are all Hizbollah’ stance. No thanks!
As for the anarchists (yep I’m one), well i think many have a fairly natural moralist-type response to the horror of the deaths in Gaza, and come up with a knee jerk response. Others see it as a chance to have a pop at big business and obvious corporations (which is fine by me). Many find it hard to stand back and have a detailed think/discussion about the depth of the issues involved here, and one of the problems of modern day political discourse is its all soundbites, and nobody is prepared to spend 20 minutes explaining a deeper position. Best anarchist text i’ve seen so far was uploaded to the bristol anarchist bookfair blog called ‘Gaza – against war and warmongers’ at http://www.bristolanarchistbookfair.org/?p=58 and criticsed by some because it offered no immediate knee-jerk action suggestion. Yeah well thats life!
“Stalinist Islamo-Trots” is a semi-humorous epithet of my own directed at the SWP/ Respect/Galloway and suchlike. The point being that these types have the same mentality as those on the left who supported Stalin back in the day, completley uncritically supporting utterly evil sods because they were “anti-imperialist”.
I must say the phenomenon completely befuddles me. It’s not an original observation.
I left a comment on that Indymedia article saying something along the lines of it was the best thing to come out of Bristol’s anarchist movement in years. It got hidden.
Agree with you on Ridley and Respect – that’s one of the reasons I’m in the Green Party and Jewish Socialist Group and not them.
I certainly won’t be shouting “We are all Hamas” but will continue supporting solidarity work for the people of Gaza.
To be fair to the SWP one of the main reasons they left the “Respect” grouping was they were uneasy with the too cosy relations with the Islamists. It not to say that they have addressed the issue as thoroughly as I would like.
Its not entirly fair that all of “the left” have ignored other conflicts (Congo, Zimbabwe etc)
Peter Tatchell (fellow Green Party and Green Left member) has done a lot of campaigning for years against the Mugabe regime (I’ve been on a couple of demo’s myself)
The Socialist Party (ex Militant) for all their faults, have been pretty fair and balanced on this issue as well.
I am unapologetic about supporting the people of Gaza, but agree with you that some of the stuff coming out from Ridley, Gosling etc is pretty terrible.
The pro Israeli camp also has its deeply unpleasant and racist elements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Front
http://www.masada2000.org/
isn’t it ironic that these ultra lefties spew their hatred for everything western & capitalist, yet continue to live, profit & prosper in the kind of society they seem to hate so much?? 😕
talk about biting the hand that feeds!!!! 😀
Thank you, Badnewswade. I’m learning fast.
oh dear
tis a shame on you all
that whilst this massacre is taking place
and people are dying
all you seek to think and discuss about
is
‘we hate the people who go to these meetings
they’re idiots’
have you no concern for what’s happenning
in gazza and has been happening in
palestine for 60years?
or do you just prefer your uninformed
localised back biting?
“Oh Dear”
I do agree with you that the emphasis here is all wrong. 1300 dead Gazans and 60 years of ethnic cleansing is the main issue here.
The Pro Palestinian movement would be stronger, not weaker if it rejected anti semitism in a clearer way.
Blogger mentions the Bias of “Press TV”, but fails to mention the bias of the western media towards Israel, here’s Peter Tatchell (no friend of Islamists):
http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/press-biased-against-palestinian-ambassador-says-leading-green.html
Massacres take place all over the World, all the time. I’ve nothing but respect for the campaigners who oppose all wars, but the ones who only come out of the woodwork when it’s Israel can **** off. Clear enough?
Rosso Verde,
Firstly I’d like to point out that the organisation claiming the British Press is bias is in itself bias towards the Palastinian view point being that it is the ARAB Media Watch. I remember the tories time and time again claiming that the BBC was biased against them during the last few elections as they scrabbled to find excuses for why they kept on losing.
I believe I saw an interview with the Palastinian Ambassador last week on the Channel 4 news and I think the BBC has interviewed him too so the use of the word “media” is misleading perhaps the word ‘Press’ should have been used instead as the AMW’s study only looked at British Newspapers?
I’m not particularly Pro-Israel but I will side with a bona fide democratic state over a bunch of AK47 toting extremists. Israel is far from being a brilliant country but issues such as anti-arab racism needs a long term peace for it to be addressed and stamped out. The current climate of fear and loathing on both sides will only increase anti-Arab and anti-Jewish feelings on both sides.
Israel is in many ways “democratic” – however there are moves underway to ban Arab Israeli parties:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html
As a Jewish person, I could immigrate to and vote in Israeli elections – the millions of Palestinians expelled since 1948 can’t return to the land where their ancestors had lived for generations. – There’s no other way about it thats racist!
Hamas are absolutely vile – but like the Israeli govenment were elected. So were the Lebanese government during Israels last war.
Jozer – you are always 100% clear – fair point.
“only we are capable of real evil” – totally agree Jozer, although I see it as a form of self-hatred amongst some of us privileged and insulated in the West. But self-hating Westerners are going to have their noses really put out of joint if/when Chindia becomes the next world power.
It’s not the size of your groupuscule that counts, CP, but what the groupuscule can do. Fabian Society being a case in point. “Two people … who`ve planned to be a power–in an original way. And by Jove! they`ve done it!” as HG Wells wrote in his brilliantly moving semi-autobiographical novel “The New Machiavelli”. It did of course help that Beatrice Webb was a daughter of one of the richest men in Britain, and that she had seven sisters, most of whom made extremely advantageous marriages to influential men.
As to people being slaughtered, the figures show that worldwide, over 3,000 men women and children are killed by motor vehicles every single day, but this carnage is permitted to go on day in day out, virtually unchallenged.
‘Oh Dear’ oh dear indeed that you think this discussion is somehow taking away from a movement that will actually stop the slaughter in Gaza? Even if this discussion where big enough to affect anything, Israel doesn’t care what people on the streets of Bristol or Trafalgar Sq think. They wouldn’t even care what the U.S. Government said, they only care about weapon supply. Deluded, my dear.
Ella,
You are right to a point.
The Israeli economy is in very deep do do (even worse than here if you can belive that) and they are extremely reliant on US aid, as well as trade with the EU.
Choosing not to buy Israeli goods is a peaceful way of expressing one’s disaproval – one can also support Palestinians by buying their products
http://www.zaytoun.org/
Absolutely. There’s always extremists around. The difference is that – as far as I know – Israeli extremists aren’t being supported and promoted by local politicians and trade unions or through local rabbis.
That’s also a trufact about the economy then my green friend. I would also like to add it’s nice to see Kerry McCarthy, my biggest fan, doing something very positive.
“As a Jewish person, I could immigrate to and vote in Israeli elections – the millions of Palestinians expelled since 1948 can’t return to the land where their ancestors had lived for generations. – There’s no other way about it thats racist!” -Rosso Verdi
Quite so but there needs to be peace before this sort of racism can be dealt with because when the bombs start going off and the bullets flying both sides dig their heels in and accuse the other side of being wrong and (more importantly) claiming they are in the right. It’s all about loosing face, despite Israel bombing Gaza back to the stone age Hamas still claimed victory. There needs to be peace so that dialogue and with it compromise can occur so both sides can go back to their people and claim they got the better deal.
As for Hamas and Hezbollah the lines between gun-toting religious nut jobs and political party are so blured you can’t tell where the religious extremism ends and the politics begins.
I’ll make myself clear Rosso I don’t like extremists especially if they think violence is a means to an end no matter what their bl**dy cause. If you take things to their logical (or illogical) extremes it generally be ridiculous and at worse dangerous.
It’s very sad that the cause of Justice for Palestinians has been hijacked by this squalid alliance of Islamo-facists & communists. They’ve made it a zero-sum game about the destruction of Israel that no one in their right mind would touch with a bargepole.
It’s not rocket science why Islamo-nuts hate Jews, but why do Communists? Especially when so many early communists were Jewish themselves?
I suspect it’s because since 1948 jews have stopeed being losers, and if there’s one thing communists need like oxygen, it’s losers.
Do tell, does this 60 years of “occupation, genocide, and aparthied” include the many truces and peaceful periods between the two peoples, such as the Clinton-brokered peace period encompassing most of the 1990s? TBH anyone who ignores these historical periods of peace in order to ramp up this kind of rhetoric just wants the conflict to get worse.
BTW, if anyone wants to talk genocide, can someone please start the much needed boycott of consumer electronics that use Tantalum from the “blood Coltan” mines of Africa? The wars over this mineral, the “black gold of the IT industry” have resulted in 5 million people being killed over the last decade or so, kind of kicks your whiny Palestinian bullshit into a cocked hat. Think about that, and think about how racist it is to ignore all that suffering and death just because the recipients are black (and you personally benefit from it with yer cheap phones, computers and Playstations)
http://news.gotgame.com/blood-coltan-the-playstation-war/4589/
I would suggest that people try reading Mike Marqusee’s “If I am not for Myself” if they would like an account of why many Jewish people consider themselves anti zionist, non- zionist or post zionist.
The Jewish Socialist Group represent pretty much what I think on the whole situation:
http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/
Jozer:
“suspect it’s because since 1948 jews have stopeed being losers, and if there’s one thing communists need like oxygen, it’s losers.”
Does this imply
1) pre 1948 Jews were “loosers”
2) Palestinains are “loosers”
3) Israel has done well since 1948 (apart from at fighting)
(check out the unemployment levels, failing education system, racism directed at not only Arabs but Mizrahi (Eastern) Jews and Falasha (Ethiopian Jews) awful environmental record etc…)
Its a bloody awful, bloody complicated conflict and using tabloid cliches on the matter isn’t very helpful.
Jolly Blogger – I don’t like extremists either, whether its Hamas, Hezbollah or the Present Israeli government. – whats more extremist than bombing heavily populated areas with White Phosphorous? – I’m sure you can find some of the ghastly pictures.
What’s more extremist than killing 5 million Africans so you can have your mobile phone?
http://www.cellular-news.com/coltan/
Link isn’t working – I assume you are meaning the Congo War.
Here is the Morning Star, it has its faults but has covered it as much as any of the “Capitalist Press” as it would say:
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/world/pro_government_militia_calls_ceasefire_in_drc
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/world/dr_congo_rebels_accused_of_church_massacre
Whats been entirely overlooked here is the global political framework thats colluding with this conflict.
You’re surely aware that the controlling parties in Israel are trying to look tough (by having a war) in order to keep power.
You may be aware that they had to have this war pre Obama, they could count on their ol pal Bush to be as unscrupulous as ever.
UK has vested interest in Israel holding the lands that include the British Gas pipeline for British consumers.
Its just more of the same ie about power and commerce.
It sucks whether its Palestine, Africa, Tibet, Iraq or anywhere else.
Please stop the gratuitous nastiness Jozer, you’re simply showing your ignorance and the others who don’t seem to grasp the horrors of this (and other) blighted parts of the world where the powerful continue to crush the impoverished.
If I suspend disbelief and accept this war was started to win an election then that’s a local, not global, political framework.
How do you know they weren’t counting on their even older and better friends in the US Democratic Party? The timing’s convenient for Obama. There’s a couple of years now to get a peace process going while Hamas has to rearm. He’s brought time and he can blame the war on Bush. (We’ll have to see what the history books say on this one)
Usually war is bad for business. And it’s not a deal-breaker to business interests who’s got the land. They’ll do business with anyone. They happily deal with Saudi why not Palestine? Why support an expensive war when you can still make money without one?
If only it was that simple.
“Here is the Morning Star, it has its faults but has covered it as much as any of the “Capitalist Press” as it would say”
Exactly – it has covered it hardly at all.
You’ve been scammed, lefties- conned into thinking that the Israel-Palestine conflict is the most important thing in the world, and increasintgly that the perfidy of the “Zionists” (hint, hint) is worse than anything else going on right now. Worse than the electronics industry with it’s multi-million casualty war for raw materials? Worse than the energy industry and its million-strong casulaty war for oil and gas?
For centurites the Jews have been used as scapegoats for capitalism. This practice has not ended and there are plenty of people still around who are only too happy to place the blame on someone else. Forget ethnic conflict – the real villain is the economic system, always has been.
badnewswade you would like my lovely boyfriend who occassionally posts on here under the cunning guise of ‘Sam.’ He did a painting about that after reading a small news article detailing that since the trouble in the Congo over 250,000 women were raped there, related to the conflict. He said the image on the opposite page was of people talking about shopping and the ‘mundane’ as they called it. He then explained to me that much of the war is over the mineral that goes into everything from cameras to mp3 players to mobile phones. He’s also painting things about privatistion of rivers in Africa and the buckets collecting rainwater on people’s roof tops in South America. These people die because they have no access to the rivers next to their homes. He really introduced to me to so many of the appalling things happening across the world but that don’t get much, or any, publicity. They mainly reflect the true extent to which capitalism tears human beings apart for resources, and that is a problem that would take such dramatic upheaval in everyone’s lives no one would want to talk about it.
Do I think Israel/ Palestine is the most important think in the world? No, but that’s the subject we are talking about.
Do I think anyones coverage of the Congo or Zimbabwe or Burma is adequate, no, but where there are people campaigning on these issues, they do tend to be on the political left. I mentioned Peter Tatchell’s campaigning against Mugabe (The MDC are a trade union based opposition)
Anti Semitism exists all around us, there are anti semitic people who SUPPORT Israel, look at Nick Griffin and the BNP and the Christian Zionists. (Not any Jewish people are likely to buy it)
Just because Anti Semites might jump on a bandwagon doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t condemn Israel for what it does. Would it be racist against Afrikaaners to campaign against Aparthied?
Its incredibly patronising to the many Jewish people who are critical of Israel that we don’t understand Anti Semitism, or that we have to support a state, a political entity, just because it declares itself the “Jewish State”
“Forget ethnic conflict – the real villain is the economic system, always has been.” – yes I agree
and its economics not religion or ethnicity that is at the roots of this conflict.
Thats why I’m in favour of a Bi -National Secular State for Jews and Arabs. – Might be a pipe dream, but what we have now isn’t working and hasn’t worked for the last 60 years (and more).
‘usually war is bad for business’
are you really this naive BB. You really need to do a bit more research. The arms industry (a major earner for UK and USA) must be jumping for joy. War nowadays is extremely profitably for the construction industry etc.
I said global and I meant it. And a bit more research and you’d find evidence that the war was premeditated and carefully timed.
Please also note that some of the powerful seeking re-election in Israel were born of parents who were terrorists killing among others, UK soldiers and bombing hotels full of civilians.
Israel has consistently prevented humanitarian aid reaching those in need and can only be described as a terrorist state determined to undermine democracy in Palestine, backed by the oppressive former regime in USA who weren’t too fond of democracy themselves, possibly one of the most corrupt and damaging ever to have existed worldwide.
Fossil fuels, the greatest tragedy since Helen of Troy. Incredibly appealing but what a cost.
I was talking about the British gas industry that you originally mentioned, doubting it had much to do with the ongoing Israel/Palestine conflict. The arms industry is a different case but you’re changing the subject … As for the whole thing being run for the benefit of the construction industry, I find that hard to believe too.
‘
I’m not refuting that the war was planned and timed. Most are. I’m refuting that it’s got anything to do with Israeli elections. If the war took 6 months – 1 year to plan, which they do, how could anyone have known Olmert would resign in July due to a corruption investigation? How could they know the coalition government would then fail to reach an agreement in October? The Israeli elections were not reasonably predictable. How could you build a plan around them? The Presidential inauguration, however …
‘
And your point is? Have I mentioned terrorists?
‘
So far over two comments you’ve variously blamed the cause of the conflict, with little analysis or explanation, on:
The global political framework; the controlling parties in Israel; George Bush; British Gas; power and commerce; the powerful crushing the impoverished; the arms industry; builders; children of Israeli terrorists; Israel being a terrorist state and the former US government’s lack of democracy.
This is basically a list of things you don’t like (I don’t like a lot of them either), not causes of the Gaza War. Strangely the main cause – the 60 year local land dispute – you haven’t mentioned.
Good article in the New Statesman on this very subject:
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2009/01/israel-starbucks-march-protest
Does this imply
1) pre 1948 Jews were “loosers”
Yes.
2) Palestinains are “loosers”
Yes
3) Israel has done well since 1948 (apart from at fighting)
(check out the unemployment levels, failing education system, racism directed at not only Arabs but Mizrahi (Eastern) Jews and Falasha (Ethiopian Jews) awful environmental record etc…)
It’s still there.
Spiked – which often needs to be treated with caution and read critically – has been doing a lot on Gaza, Zionism and antisemitism. It’s from a long winded anti-imperialist perspective but is generally quite reasonable and rational.
Not sure what you mean in all war there are no real winners.
I’m sure quite a few people in Israel and Palestine don’t share your rather flippant view – there are no winners here!
Spiked – yes an interesting read, full of climate change deniers, most of them came from the old Revolutionary Communist Party, remember them?
Mad as a fish – but a good read
“in all war there are no real winners” – If only this were true people might fight them less often than they do.
Munitions dealers can definitely win. States can win. For example, 60 years on I think you can say that the USA gained substantially from world wars 1 & 2. Did Britain not win from the Falklands conflict? Even the losers generally believe at the outset that they can win.
You might say that ‘Change’ can also win out. Nothing can progress society faster and more deeply than a war, which spurs on new technologies, destroys old ways and old infrastructure and forces people into new patterns.
War mongering politicians will perhaps gain votes, Hamas may recruit more members. Arms manufacturers will sell more weapons and make more profit. 100% correct, a very grim picture though.
Also correct that technology can advance quicker in war, although it can be argued that is due to the mobilisation of all resourses towards a common goal “the war effort”, rather than the actual violence of combat.
Are you deliberately misunderstanding me BB.
I did afterall refer to the global framework colluding with war. I think we’re all clear that the starting point was the 60 year old land dispute.
My point is to draw attention to the various motivations that tend to promote war rather than peace in the middle east.
We are all agreed surely (if not then do read ‘The last oil shock’ by David Strahan) that the Iraq war was solely about USA and UK securing oil.
There are no winners in war, Jozer, everyone loses even if they delude themselves that they’ve won.
The ‘technological advances’ born of war have very nearly completely destroyed our life support system ie our one and only planet earth. Yet more lose/lose. How incredibly stupid and vicious to think you can win anything meaningful by intentionally hurting other people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm
Now here’s something you really SHOULD be complaining about.
There are a lot of stupid comments at the bottom of the page. Check out Geoffrey, Dorset England. What a fucking idiot.
Typical BBC “Have Your Say” Ella. Home to the “I’m not racist but….” sort of people.
Hopefully the fuss over this will generate more publicity than the TV appeal would have.
03700 100 222 is the BBC’s complaint line.
“So far over two comments you’ve variously blamed the cause of the conflict, with little analysis or explanation, on:
The global political framework; the controlling parties in Israel; George Bush; British Gas; power and commerce; the powerful crushing the impoverished; the arms industry; builders; children of Israeli terrorists; Israel being a terrorist state and the former US government’s lack of democracy.
This is basically a list of things you don’t like (I don’t like a lot of them either), not causes of the Gaza War. Strangely the main cause – the 60 year local land dispute – you haven’t mentioned”
And there, Blogger, you have pretty well summed up the Indymedja mentality.
What mentality do you represent Jozer?
All your motivations are one-sided. They’re all about the US and the West. Are Arab and Muslim states just innocent and powerless victims in all this?
There’s two sides promoting this war. On one you have the US and the West basically upholding the state of Israel’s right to exist. What else can they do? And on the other you have Arab and Muslim states denying Israel’s right to exist. OK, there’s nuances but that’s pretty much the underlying motivations for war in the Middle East.
No we’re not all agreed. I think the real insanity of Bush and the Neo-Cons lies in the fact they believed their own bullshit. Iraq wasn’t a war of Kissinger-style realism, they really believed they would introduce democracy to Iraq. That’s why they initially sent no occupying force. They didn’t intend to stay …
Rosso, I basically stopped reading HYS about two years ago because I used to get really worked up and upset that the people who say the kind of stuff they do are alive and there’s nothing I can do to change that.
HYS does have its very own tribute site though…
http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/
They’ve even written a program that auto-generates HYS posts!
http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/the-twat-o-tron/
Now if someone would do the same for Indymeeeja…
I think we can all guess Jozer mentality by looking at the plastic doll photo, I’m beginning to think its for real.
BB you really must read more widely, the evidence is stacked up in the book I referred to whereas your insistence on believing your own thoughts about the Iraq war is just that.
As you appear to recognise that there was a ‘land dispute’ 60 years ago then presumeably you also recognise that Palestine was carved in a particularly non-negotiated way. Wouldn’t you just object a tiny little bit if Germany had invaded Britain and bulldozed you out of your home.
Thanks for introducing me to spiked. I read a couple of articles and thought the writers interesting if opinionated.
I mulled over the one on victimisation. I thought it a good point that both Palestine and Israel would do well to positively define themselves and their futures, all that national self determination stuff. I think where the author fell short was in not adequately understanding human nature.
When a terrible wrong is committed eg Nazi’s behaviour to Jews, a huge process has to take place including grief, recognition by others of the injustice and some sort of healing.
My partner incidently was born a Jew and I have friends whose Jewish parents were caught up in the atrosities, escaping to ‘new lives’ in Tasmania.
I think when such great horrors were experienced over so many generations (as with the Jews), its almost too massive to heal in a single generation. Consequently the inevitable damage to the pysche that not entirely healed, I think generates some of the same behaviour which could be internalised as with my friends father who committed suicide or externalised. Eg someone bullied may well bully others quite unconsciously, almost an automatic reaction.
While no-one of any intelligent would give a bully in the playground a machine gun, unfortunatly the West has done just that, piling Israel up with a terrifying arsenal . Having wreaked havoc on the indigenous population of ‘the promised land’, the whole traumatizing process is set off again. Now we have more people who need to go through grieving, their injustices recognised and some healing process etc
Until the injustices are dealt with adequately things escalate as injustices mount up and everyone’s increasingly overwhelmed.
That is where things are now.
A more enlightened civilisation would send in multi billions of dollars worth of therapists, not bombs and certainly not look the other way as Israel increasingly bullies Palestine.
“I think when such great horrors were experienced over so many generations (as with the Jews), its almost too massive to heal in a single generation. Consequently the inevitable damage to the pysche that not entirely healed, I think generates some of the same behaviour which could be internalised …”
I don’t agree with much of what you say Butterbean, but this makes to total sense to me. We really don’t take this sort of mass psychology into account at all. Such issues afflict many, many peoples, examples spring to mind of Australian Aboriginals, Native Americans and many other indigenous folk, as well as formerly enslaved peoples in the US and UK, not to mention those of us whose ancestors were herded into slums and factories and forced to work 16 hour days from the age of 6. The ongoing suffering is palpable.
Listening to Obama’s inauguration I was saddened to hear an older African-American lady comment how glad she is that Obama was not “tainted” by having enslaved ancestors?!?